– What do you think about the dialogue between the ANC and government and what problems according to you they are going to solve?
– To be honest these issues do not interest me and I have not thought about them to draw conclusions. In other words, I had to have some expectation in the dialogue in order to think about it and analyze.
– Do not believe in the ANC or their assurances that they will pursue the goal of by-elections through dialogue?
– I was sure that there would be by-elections; I made an announcement about it one year ago, when there was no information about dialogue yet. I think that the ANC’s candidate will be Levon Zurabyan, and the non-official candidate may be Nicol Pashinyan.
– What does an official candidate mean?
– This means that the ANC may decide that their candidate is Zurabyan, and there will be also people who will come up with an initiative to support Pashinyan. In other words, I said that there would be by-elections long before the ANC would speak about that. I am not sure if it will happen, but still I think it is quite possible. This is not connected with the dialogue. Serzh Sargsyan may need to prolong the time connected with the Karabakh conflict settlement issue, and due to it he will win three months, as a result of which he will be able to organize presidential elections in the end of the year and be re-elected like in the case of Georgia. For that reason I am not interested in the activities of the ANC and others.
– Are you trying to say that ANC leader Levon Ter-Petrosyan indirectly supports Serzh Sargsyan?
– I don’t care much if he does that directly or indirectly but as long as the leader of the Armenian opposition is Levon Ter-Petrosyan the incumbent Serzh Sargsyan will be in charge of the political power of Armenia. So in my opinion, at this point the most realistic way of getting rid of the incumbent government is the activation off the second president Robert Kocharyan. In my opinion in the event of snap parliamentary elections the proportional lists of the most powerful political parties will be led by the three presidents. And I think that in the event of snap elections the Prime Minister of Russia Vladimir Putin will visit Armenia to open the campaign of Kocharyan.
– What exactly do you mean?
– Kocharyan and Sargsyan had a deal that after the election of Sargsyan Kocharyan would be the Prime Minister. But this agreement is being infringed right now and Sargsyan brings the reason that the society doesn’t accept Kocharyan and that the support of the people is with the opposition and the leader of the opposition Ter-Petrosyan is categorically against the appointment of Kocharyan to this post. I am sure these questions are being discussed with the Russian Federation as well and Sargsyan also tells Russia why he doesn’t appoint Kocharyan Prime Minister. And the snap elections will take place when the US and Russia will benefit from that. Periodically the media circulates information that Kocharyan met with Putin. And it’s not excluded that Putin might tell Kocharyan to run in the snap elections, lead a list of a party and if he occupies the second place in the race he can be Prime Minister and then it will become clear who was right and who was wrong. And the only way of clarification of this matter is not the social polls but his actual participation in elections.
– And will Kocharyan be able to gain votes?
– In Armenia ever since 1991 the ballots of the people have never been important. If the opinion of the people matched with the opinion of Kremlin the candidate can become President by 80-90%. Same happened with Ter-Petrosyan. In 1991 both the people and the Kremlin wanted Ter-Petrosyan become President. But when the opinion of the people didn’t match with Moscow there was always violence on the streets. So happened in 1996 and 2008.
– In your opinion, what will the picture be if the Presidents lead the list of the three parties?
– I think 30% of the votes will go to RPA, 15% to ANC and 12-13% will go to Kocharyan.
– Does it mean that the majority will be comprised by the RPA again?
– Of course. Only in Yerevan the administrative resource makes 15-20% and in marzes 30%.
– Don’t you see the possibility of the victory of other forces?
– I don’t think so. As long as these three forces are on the playfield it is not possible. People are paying a very expensive price for their development. They should have passed these stages long ago. But it also depends on the level of people. That is the reason why people are still staggering around these three candidates. They see the future of the country in the hands and deeds of these three individuals. And these three presidents cannot save the country because with their mentality, attitude and policies are not able to build an independent Armenia.
– Even Ter-Petrosyan?
– Yes, even him. He had done whatever he could during the formation of CIS but today the matter is to be independent from Russia. The events of Georgia are precedents for all the post-soviet states – sooner or later. The countries, which go through these processes late will suffer tougher consequences. And Ter-Petrosyan is not among these figures. The maximum that Ter-Petrosyan can do resembles Shevardnadze’s role. He could have come to power to build a young competent generation and leave. But he didn’t do so.
– You said that the ANC candidate is going to be Zurabyan and not him. Perhaps that’s what he’s doing.
– If they are going to make such a choice in four years… then it’s their problem.
– Do you agree with that choice?
– They are not interesting to me at all. I don’t care who they are going to pick, whether they are engaged into the dialog or not. Of course, I’m sorry that I’m not interested.
– At any rate, you were interested in 2008.
– No. I thought so in 2008 as well. From 1998 to 2007 I supported the return of Ter-Petrosyan but when he entered the political field and the things he had done I decided not to endorse him. I didn’t participate in any election and haven’t endorsed anyone. And I participated in the first rally on February 27, 2008. The reason for that is that I saw on TV how they were holding a funeral in front of Ter-Petrosyan’s house. They were playing some music, erecting a tombstone. As a citizen I went there and asked if as opposition some day I decide to run in my community will they intimidate my children in front of my house? Even the chekists were not doing such things during the soviet era.
– ANC has established the NGO named Political Prisoners but many of the political prisoners are not registered there, including you. And the chair of this NGO Miasnik Malkhasyan declared that it includes the people who haven’t cut a deal with the government. What can you say about that?
– What can I say? Every person acts and speaks in accordance with his mental level and intellect. But I don’t think that Miasnik meant me or my other comrades. And I don’t care what they had established. Now if you told me that Miasnik established a cattle farm I’d say the same thing by wishing him good luck.
– Were you offered to be included in that NGO?
– No but if they did I’d apologize by refusing to be involved. For me there is no political process. I am being sincere. Please don’t think that I’m offended. There is really no process for me.
– What do you mean? Do you think that the methods of this struggle are not honest?
– It’s hard to say. They are not struggling honestly. In Armenia all the forces are struggling similarly. I will speak out only in one case. That’s when I can myself lead a political force. I will try that in 2013. For example, when in 2008 war 5-6 presidents visited Georgia, they stood next to Sahakashvilli and condemned the aggression the leader of the Armenian opposition stated that Georgia organized genocide. After that I can’t understand his logic why Europe should support him. It means that Europe assumes that if this person considers the war genocide then when he comes to power he is going to recognize Ossetia’s independence. Why would they let him to come to power?
– Last week after the summit held in Astana information was circulated that they had made a decision to establish a mobile group and withstand the possibility of color revolutions in the CIS territory with the help of the Collective Security Treaty Organization. The purpose of that was to avoid the analogous developments in select Arabic states. Will this decision ever be implemented?
– It’s natural that in western countries any country decides to organize a communist revolution they will use their own methods to mortify the risk. The issue is that whether they will be able to implement that or not. There were certain forces in the Tsar Russia, which were against the Bolshevik revolution and they were implementing projects but the great empire just fell. And now they are trying to establish a body, which is going to advocate for the Russian interests. And that is good because the struggle becomes more open. In our country the parties are just struggling for posts. In Kremlin for example there can be a struggle for post between Putin and Medvedev but they are the same. Technically there can be a fight for post between Serzh Sargsyan and Levon Ter-Petrosyan but in a global meaning they are the same. So Bordyuzha from CSTO may state that they are against color revolutions. And so did Ter-Petrosyan in his rally by saying that he is against revolutions. It means Putin, Sargsyan, Ter-Petrosyan are the same people for me. And if some day I wish to organize a revolution in Armenia all three of them are equally going to be my enemies.
– What about Kocharyan?
– He is merely in a new game now.
– By the way, according to Gallup polls 75% of Armenians is pro-Russian.
– Each nation has its value system and criteria for values. There are always cases when one value system is obligatory to the other. At certain stages when it’s lost there is chaos and disaster. That is the reason why different countries have been mediating to keep the peace and balance. Maybe come of this mediation and interference doesn’t fit their ethnic image or the psychological state of mind of the people but they don’t care and accept that. Our people, who are one of the oldest nations, have gone through that and our main issue is that we don’t have our own value system. It means that our nation either resembles an infant or an old man, who doesn’t know what’s good and what’s bad. There are people who don’t know whether they are hungry or sleepy. The parents tell their children to eat or sleep. They don’t have to be retards. So there are three options – infant, old or degenerate. Now all the three parameters fit the Armenian people. But if the people don’t have their own value system they are always led by the value system, which they are offered from the outside. They look at that through this prism. So in the case of Armenia during the 2000-year history Armenia was “pro” to any nation or country, which invested their value system to Armenia. Now we have been pro-Russian during the past 300 years and as long as we don’t have our own we are going to support the ruling empire. Right now it is Russia that dominates. If I adopt pro-western values they are going to call me pro-western. But I am nationalist and they are primitive. As they are pro-Russian they cannot understand that the person may have his own value system, say yes or no to certain things through his own prism. And these pro-Russians will tomorrow become pro-Americans with great pleasure when the US succeeds in collapsing the Russian empire. So this 75% are going to be pro-Americans and they are going to blame us for being anti pro-American. If the person doesn’t have a soul then he is a piece of flesh and 90% of our people don’t have a soul. Our people lack belief and creed. If they had the belief they would have a soul too.
– But in 2008 people had belief to be out at the square.
– That is why I’m saying that the outside forces formulate the source of trust for our people. During the past 2000 years in Armenia people have never formed a government. As a rule the government official was appointed from Tizbon and ratified by Rome. So now the role of Tizbon and Rome is being played by Moscow and Washington. And if there is no agreement between these too there will be a real disaster in Armenia. For example, Ter-Petrosyan stated that he didn’t need any “approvals” but he went to Moscow, right? But what is the difference between a pro-Russian Ter-Petrosyan or pro-Russian Sargsyan? They are able to implement their policies now as well. Why would they want to replace Sargsyan? The formation of this value system is not only in politics. Fr example, we can mention the Armenian literature. For us Hovhannes Tumanyan is great but that was also decided by the Russians. It is so in all the sectors. What I am trying to say is that nobody was able to break these stereotypes. The Russians exploited our value system and mentality. Geghamyan said in a microphone that they are with Putin. He didn’t understand that. Sargsyan and Ter-Petrosyan are doing the same thing more covertly. We are saying we are not going to Moscow but we are doing the opposite… There is a big problem for the Armenian nation. We don’t know if we are hungry or sleepy and the other people who tell us what’s best for us don’t want us to bet smarter and make our decisions ourselves. They like to instruct us by knowing that we don’t understand what’s good and what’s bad for us. It is the Russians, who decide who our best painter, writer, artist, musician or presidential candidate should be. As long as our people don’t know who the best writer is they won’t ever know who the best presidential candidate will be. The two things are equivalent. In this case what’s the difference it is the ANC or RPA in power if they are both bad?
– You have mentioned that it doesn’t make any difference for Russia which of the Armenian pro-Russian politicians is a president. Does the US play any role in Armenia?
– n 2008 the US has realized that both Sargsyan and Ter-Petrosyan are pro-Russian. And they decided not to do anything. The US doesn’t care which one of them will support Medvedev. The same can be said about Moscow. They don’t care who the Armenian messenger is going to be as long as that messenger is pro-Russian.