– In his May 28 message RA President Serzh Sargsyan emphasized the importance of freedom of speech and protection of human rights. Don’t you think that when comparing with reality the value of these words just disappears? Wasn’t it possible to establish prerequisites for the establishment of these values in the country so that the average citizens would actually see and realize that the government is taking steps to improve the situation in the country and provide protection of human rights?
– Indeed, we could. During his May 28 message the president also said that we are strong and that’s the reason why we can fully apply this formula. It means that the government declares about this transition after evaluating the situation created in the country. I mean the value of his statement of developing in the democratic direction. A new formula is being offered. For the first time the necessity of these steps arose when we didn’t register any drastic success in the foreign policy arena. And it became evident that in the foreign policy arena we have registered imperceptible progress. And what the government can do is change the internal politics and make a better country. Now this approach has been formulated and I am very glad that the country is moving in the democratic direction.
– What should be the first step for the society to believe that this statement is not among the ones on the wish-list?
– First of all they should clearly tell the society what they want to do and what steps should be taken to strengthen democracy in the country. The age of words and wishes is gone already. Yes, there was time in Armenia when the government was only speaking about wishes. Now we need realization of notions and wishes. I think the government should show that they will present necessary evidence to the people about the necessity of radical changes. Democratic change is an immense radical change. It is impossible to do that without efforts. Everybody is well-aware of the situation in Armenia. In Armenia the problem is not only the fact that free market lost to monopolistic prices, the fact that oligarchs always show their power and money. Here we have institutional and in-depth crisis both in economy and government. It is not easy to change it. Mentality and political culture is adapted to the interest of the powerful ones and corruption has become a working mechanism. In this regard, when they announce about the transition of democracy we should realize that the institutional concept of the state should change, democratic institutes should function. And first of all the institute of elections should work properly, which doesn’t now.
– On May 31 the ANC announced during the rally that the opposition’s current demand from the government is extraordinary elections.
– I am against holding extraordinary elections because there is a tradition of falsifying elections in Armenia. By the way, it is done not only by the authorities but also all other powers take part in that process. The problem is that all our people are taking part in the falsification of elections. Let’s remember the elections; everybody was in dirty games, money was solving problems, and the people with honor refused to take part in elections as they did not want to be a part of that dirty game as they didn’t believe that they could change anything. Thus, the first step that could bring to democratization was the development of the institute of free and fair elections. I am sorry but I don’t believe in it because it’s not the government only, falsifying elections has become a tradition, a national business. Both organizers and voters are falsifying elections. Armenia voters are already corrupt.
– Does not the ANC that demands extraordinary elections understand this fact?
– I think the ANC is wrong to demand extraordinary elections. It will be a loss because the elections will still be violated and after that everybody will announce that the elections have proceeded legally and the authorities will again be legitimate. Do you know why the parliament does not work now? Because it is not legitimate. Tomorrow everybody will again violate the elections. The reason is the fact that all local authorities are manipulated by the government and the top authorities have the tools to manipulate and falsify elections. People are in that process too. We should not underestimate this. If we underestimate this, we will always lose. From this prospective I believe the ANC is wrong to demand extraordinary elections.
– Do you think the ANC do not know about it?
– I think they know it but I think they do not know any other method of delivering the opinion of people to the authorities. I think that the ANC’s current demand comes from failed elections, but I think the ANC has succeeded in making the authorities listen to the voice of people through a dialogue. This important achievement should not be underestimated.
– What else should they demand if not extraordinary elections?
– There are a lot of things to demand. Before demanding extraordinary elections they should look at the situation with the Law on Elections and the mechanisms which reproduce falsified elections. As I said above, falsification of elections has become a national business in Armenia and teachers, doctors, community heads and others are involved in it. Even the neighborhood guys are waiting for elections to make money. Armenia does not need by-elections without correction of this mechanism. Even more, I think that now, when the political prisoners have been set free, is the best time because people already feel their power and they feel that they can change something. A very important thing has happened. People should not have new losses. Extraordinary election means a new loss for them. Money will overcome all best ambitions.
– Don’t you think that the events of March 1 have proven that money will not be decisive factor anymore?
– The events of March 1 show that people do not agree with this situation, they are ready to struggle and sacrifice. On March 1 the people showed their muscles, the government showed their power too, and a third power came, made shootings in the streets and showed that they are above everyone. Till now nobody knows who that third power was. It was a trilateral clash and tragedy.
– In fact you are refuting Levon Ter-Petrosyan’s allegation that during these years the consciousness of the society has developed so much that the government cannot buy them with money anymore.
– I think it is optimism because that politician, who has proven that he is pragmatic, does not want to see the level of poverty of people, does not see new things that need to be done and maybe he thinks that it is time for new elections. They want to solve the problem of having an arena for representing the interests of people. They are able to solve their problems due to the mobilization of the efforts and pressure of people. There will not be a better situation than this one. There are many problems that need to be solved and can become a demand. Ter-Petrosyan said in his speech that their negotiation team is ready. As an expert I am advising him not to hurry because the negotiation status itself has dangers first of all for the ANC.
– Are you against dialogue?
– I am for dialogue; I am against extraordinary elections. In order to make dialogue an institute must be established. This is the important thing. Do you remember the Public Chamber? Does it exist now? Why did it happen this way? Because no institute and mechanisms were created. First of all the ANC should agree with the government on what the power of such negotiation can be and what is the mandate of negotiation for the parties. Who elected those 5 people? Where and with whom will they negotiate? What is the mandate of the authorities’ delegates? It means that there is a problem of mandate. For example, let’s take they have come to some results in the end of the negotiation. Who will implement those results? I see a big danger in the absence of negotiation institute and rules of mutual agreement. I appreciate the fact of agreement for a dialogue though. But I don’t see a reason for euphoria. I believe that after this the process will stay in its place and will be postponed because the authorities will send people with a mandate of failing and refusing to compromise. In other words, they will do their best to ruin the reputation and the meaning of the dialogue. After which they will refuse to do anything. As for the society, people may stand in the squares too long, get tired and go home. They may think that the parties are negotiating and nobody needs them anymore. There is such danger.
– By the way, Serzh Sargsyan also said the following: “The rights and interests of individuals are as high as the collective national interests. I believe there is no conflict of interests, but there is different perception of the reality between different groups of the society”. Do you think there is no conflict of interests?
– When I read it, in the beginning I thought the president was speaking about the people that did not serve for our country and brought the country to this situation. When I read it for the second time and carefully, I understood that he meant nationalism and independence. I think that it is about other groups of the society and I think this question should be asked to the president. The president is saying a very right thing, but he hints something else too. If it was about democracy, I think that instead of the word “nation” the words “authority and statehood” had to be used. It is about authoritarian powers, who overestimate the role of the government and underestimate the role of individuals. It is good that we are speaking of transforming from authoritarianism to democracy. I agree with the point of struggling against authoritarianism. Because when you see the big houses of rich people, they are like feudal and people are serving for them. The issue of nationalism is different. We cannot go against nationalism now because it is not time yet as we have unresolved conflict. However, nothing keeps us from moving toward democracy.
– Many people think that the offer for dialogue is a civilized method of attempting to develop relations, but others think that it is a deal with the government. What do you think about this?
– I am a supporter of dialogue. I think that dialogue has become an amortization and compensatory factor because the doors of the parliament are close for the expression of people’s voice. Do you agree with my opinion that there is no opposition in the parliament? The Heritage party that is represented with five people in the parliament cannot do that. People do not have representatives in the parliament. The people that are in the parliament are the representatives of the wealth owners, thus they are there to protect their rights. The parliament is not a democratic tool and it is a parliament of wealth owners. Now the ANC is trying to compensate that gap. The ANC mobilized people in the square and told the government to listen to them as they are the people and the owners of the country. I think the authorities were smart to listen to them and understand. It means that dialogue is an exit solution because if the elections were fair in Armenia, there would be no need for dialogue. I would not say that the ANC is the authority. I would say it is the group of owners that has occupied that institution. Our country has paid too much for the creation of that group of wealth owners. We have paid too much and we still pay for that. It was not worthy because we sacrificed democracy for them. They took the place of the political elite and now they are not doing anything. If they are patriots and if they have honor, they should resign and confess that it is not their place. However, the state is poor and is making tax policy terror. That is why we have sacrificed the parliament. As a result of sacrificing democracy people are not protected and feel humiliated.
– Would it be better to organize this dialogue in participation of the top leaders, i.e. Serzh Sargsyan and Levon Ter-Petrosyan?
– Now they are negotiating. If you read their speeches you will see that they are in negotiation now. They are negotiating on an indirect distance. As the government has power, it is showing its power that way, and as the opposition is backed by people, they are organizing rallies to show their power too. However, in fact they talk to each other. There was a moment when I thought that the Soviet model was repeating; people were not able to influence on the authorities and others came from Brussels to make the government come down. During the Soviet times those people used to come from Moscow, now they come from Brussels. I would like those chinovniks not to come here anymore; I want the country become a really European system. We must be able to solve our own problems ourselves. From this prospective I think that the moment we have now is very important and we should not underestimate this opportunity. Both sides are expressing important ides. The president says that we will transform from authoritarianism to democracy as we are in a situation that we must pay attention to the happiness factors of people. As for the opposition leader, he says that people will stay in the square as long as the rights of people are not protected. This is a very important dialogue. It is impossible to dialogue more. People have heard these speeches and now they are waiting for the results. Even more, the society must show that they have heard it and they want the results.
– You did not mention the factor of the second president Robert Kocharyan. Do you think he will stay far from active politics and will not interfere with the dialogue?
– I think that we are occupied with the second president too much now. I think that everything is about the question whether our country will become modern or no. If it becomes modern, the second president will; stand no chance. If the Armenian people elect according to their will, and the institutes prevent interfering, he will not return. His chances are connected with money, but hence our country wants democracy. When we look at the faces of the people in the square, we see totally new Armenians. Honorable people will not allow them return but the institutes may reproduce the situation notwithstanding our wish. If we build feudalism, the institutes will bring a king. Thus, if the opposition wants to negotiate, the first point must be the status issue, i.e. who is the one to fulfill the commitments as a result of negotiations. What will be the mandates of the delegates? The mandate of the authorities must be the announcement that they will fulfill the decisions reached as a result of negotiations. I do not want to refute this idea; what I want to say is that it won’t work without the creation of the adequate mechanism. I would recommend to establish a mechanism of negotiations. The ANC should agree with the authorities on creation of a roundtable, the decisions of which shall be sent to the executive body for implementation. Nothing can be done without such agreement. We have a lot of achievements, we must not lose them. We still have an opportunity for extraordinary elections. The new parliament that may be elected will be worse. It is better to establish a new institute in parallel with the parliament. When the leaders of the Solidarity were in prisons in Poland, people went out to streets, established a negotiation roundtable and the government fulfilled the decisions of that roundtable. After that all oppositionists went out of prisons and were elected in the new parliament. This is an effective solution and such roundtable should have an official function. Let’s call this an interim period because the president has announced that we are transforming from authoritarianism to democracy. I think they should establish such roundtable to work in parallel with the parliament in this period. My advice is to follow the example of Poland, which will be applicable and very useful for the current situation in Armenia.
– There are many opinions about creation of a new political power. Do you think it is possible and there are powers that do not serve for the interests of either of the existing powers and may become a new political streamline?
– It is not about what you said. We do not need a new political power. Our powers are already consolidated. The situation is clear already; the ANC is the opposition and if there are new powers that want to be opposition, they should negotiate with the ANC and join with them. The authorities are consolidated as well. Anew power established in this situation can be a reason of external pressure. We don’t need that. I don’t see any interest inside the country that is not expressed. The authorities have consolidated their power around the interests of the rich, and the ANC is there to represent the interests of the society. The only thing we can do is ask the ANC to be more tolerant toward the other political powers that are opposition and support important ideologies. And if there are new ideas and interests, 12 representatives of the intelligentsia may write a joint letter either to the government or the opposition, or people. It is how it works in many countries; it is how new ideas come up and work.