Interview with Tigran Hakobyan, president of “The society against terrorism” NGO, who served as the press-secretary of prime-minister Vazgen Sargsyan in 1999
– The terror of October 27 took place 11 years ago. Do you think during these 11 years attempts have been made to find out why it happened to understand if it is possible to prevent the repetition of such things in the future too?
– Attempts may have been made but the lack of the public demand does not allow to overcome the complex and results of the October 27.
– But there was public demand during the first year.
– It was an emotional demand because a cruel thing had been done, which was multiplied by 100 times by the TV. The video recordings of people with umbrellas, rifles and bloody dead bodies impacted the psychology of people. As we see the time made these emotions come down, which was not replaced by a public demand to understand that tragedy and learn lessons. I think there could not be a demand for solving inner problems in a country, where the external factors are the power, which can consolidate the nation. We don’t have common values such as the language, territory, respect to each others, the vision for a common future, the economic and social condition. Hundreds of wires should connect people with each other, due to which they can resist and oppose to such things. Now we are a nation, which is separated and indifferent. We are talking of a language which has protected us for 5000 years but are opening foreign language schools. We want to establish an “Armenian world” but we don’t know whether it will be in Armenia, in Armenia-Artsakh, Javakhk or anywhere else. Recently I read the interview of a very honest actor who said, “We are a small country like bird’s waste. What good things can we do here?” Are there any other countries which have not yet figured out what is their fatherland that needs them, where they must build a compatible and fair statehood? How does it happen that countries that have lost territories such as Mexico and Cyprus, Germany and Georgia, Japan and Serbia can build their future anyway? We don’t have a common opinion about the legitimacy of the authorities, we don’t have a common vision about the country we want to build. We don’t have even a common political and economic system because Yerevan is governed by oligarchic capitalism and the regions are still in feudalism. In such countries the terror as a mass destruction psychological weapon is very easy to apply because it can frighten millions of people.
– You said there was no public demand to discover the crime. What about the authorities? Why was their reaction inadequate? At least their peers were killed and they had to worry and be afraid for too.
– Who said they were not afraid? They could strengthen their security, build higher walls near their houses and take stricter security measures. But the authorities can do that, what about the ordinary citizens? How can they be protected? We are used to the idea that Turks have annihilated a part of our nation and the worst danger comes from them, but still we are more tolerant to the domestic repressions. What is the October 27 compared to the Genocide and massacres in our history? Do you remember that there were people who compared the victims of the October 27 with Turks? They did as it justified their motives to kill a Turk. There were surveys following the terror and 25% of the respondents said it was good that those people had been killed because of the bad situation in the social sector, corruption and other malformations. It means that in the public opinion in the country murder is not always considered to be a crime. It made us understand what a bad thing was the terror of October 27.
– Now many people, even they may be more than this 25%, are trying to find justifications for the group of Hunanyan because the time has changed the understanding the interpretation of the issue. Today the October 27 is not considered to be a serious tragedy because the institutions are so ideally corrupt that today many people are killing state officials in their minds every day.
– You said that. Does it mean that such terrors may happen any time?
– I think that if this terror took place, for example, in the Great Britain, it would either be discovered or the reaction of the society would be different.
– It might not be discovered, I don’t know, but the common tragedy and anger would consolidate the nation, increase the responsibility of the authorities, results in tangible changes such as resignations, public discussions, punishments, etc. Today the Great Britain is totally different rather than before the terror of 2005. Another example is the recent reaction of the society for raising the age of pensioners; if it was done in Armenia and even if this age was raised to 100 years, the society would still keep silence. I don’t think people would oppose to such social injustice.
– Don’t say that because if it happens we will try to live that long to get that money.
– What I say is that they would again blame the authorities, save money for their old years, and in some cases leave from this country. But I think the public would not oppose or complain because the only consolidating factors are the external powers and historical and psychological ideas such as Karabakh, Turkey, the Genocide, historical fatherland, etc. These are things that are very important for the mentality but are not directly connected with the well-being of the society, legal state and justice.
– People don’t complain because they are not able to, they have lost their hope.
– Or maybe they are afraid. I don’t accuse or justify anybody for historical factors such as the psychological and social factors. We are a nation that has not had an experience and traditions of an independent statehood and the ability to protect their rights in the framework of this statehood. And in fact the activation of this nation turned into a movement against another state, regime or nation. We don’t know yet how to protect our interests in our country. It’s like the Russian kingdom, where even a dishonored life can be preferred and OK for many people. Even subconsciously we are afraid to endanger our country. In our opinion the danger is not the corruption, violence or lack of democracy but any attempts to stand against the authorities. Let’s see who our heroes are. Mainly they are the hooligans and thieves because thieves are less dangerous than murderers.
– Anyway it is not fair to put the blame on the society. Karabakh reached a victory and established an independent state. However for the authorities the heroes are the thieves and hooligans and those who participated in the liberation war of Karabakh and have not succeeded to get a title of a general are either in extreme poverty, are in jails or cannot get a citizenship of Armenia. When Zhirayr Sefilyan was arrested with the suspect of organizing terroristic actions you thought it was justified. The authorities can easily isolate anybody who is able to protest and oppose to them easily by alleging that he has an intention of a terroristic action.
– Yes, we won the war in Karabakh, and as I said the reason is the fact that our nation is consolidated in case of external challenges. But the ability to fight against challenges is not limited with wars. The situation after the war is very important because you have to strengthen the results of your victory, but we still fail to do it well. As for Zhirayr Sefilyan, I share the fair concerns of his loyalists and the people who were protecting him, but I am against the methods a part of our society wants to use. It doesn’t matter if a man is a part of the government or opposition, I don’t agree with or justify any actions of terror as a tool to reach goals, as a philosophy. I am for the civilized methods of struggling and I am against any violence.
– By saying civilized manners do you mean that they should apply to the police? You know that after dealing with the police people either want to kill them or kill themselves.
– If the society unites it will become a powerful force. But we prefer to fight against things with local potential, by getting used to the situation or at least finding an original solution.
– Do you feel protected in our country?
– No, and I am trying to create my close and secure world, and everyone does that through their possibilities, potential and resources. The Armenians like to be closed and isolated like they isolate their houses with high walls, the car dark windows, even they isolate cemeteries. We don’t like and respect each other, and such society can always be manipulated with terror or fear.
– Do you think there is a danger of terror in Armenia now?
– Why a danger? Violence has become a normal thing in this country. We thought there would not be another October 27, it was the God’s punishment, it was a tragic moment in a country of victory. But later we saw the March 1, which was a terror committed by the state. If their goal was to frighten the society and keep the power, they did it.
– It seems that our country does not have serious opportunities. During our history we have always tried to “survive”. Maybe it is the reason why due to such authorities or governments we have been able to survive centuries.
– Maybe it was due to our type of the national characteristic that we have been able to survive a nation on the earth. During storms even the thickest trees may fall down but flexible bushes can survive. Maybe we are like this bush that can survive storms. This can be a model or surviving too, but if we chose this model, our heroes of the past will still be the innocent victims, and the heroes of the present – the bandits. I mean the national bandit and corrupt official.