– To what extent does Armenia depend on certain countries?
– Every country depends on other countries to certain extent but as Armenia has been abiding in conditions of survival for several years now then we have more than a complicated situation. We have an issue of maintaining our position in the international arena. It is pretty obvious that the whole information that was coming from the media about the economic dual-digit growth of Armenia was not true. Armenia was surviving at the expense of the money arriving from abroad. That money was being circulated here. And the interesting thing is that the leader of the country was elected someone, who had been doing so. But at present the most important issue of Armenia is the resolution of the NKR conflict. The political and economic impacts from the process may threaten us a lot. Unfortunately we are being managed by others, by outside forces very easily. We are trying to convince our people that if we have a president of some powerful state backing us everything will be fine. It means that we are showing to the world that we cannot do anything on our own. Even since independence people wonder what outside force is going to solve the issues of Armenia. That is what harms us all the time and puts our people on the wrong track.
– You have once stated that the cease fire agreement of 1994 between Armenia and Azerbaijan was a wrong decision, which harmed us.
– During the years of the NKR war we were able to prove to the world that we are able to find the right solutions and make good decisions during hard times and that our mind works better in harder conditions that at peace. Due to the war we were able to make correct diplomatic steps. After the cease fire we should have had been able to develop in a right way, progress economically. We should have proved to our neighbors Georgia and Azerbaijan that the development of our country depends on us and that we are doing a great job developing economically.
– But it doesn’t mean that the cease fire was a bad idea. All we needed to do is make the right steps.
– We all perfectly know that Azerbaijan has a sea, oil, Georgia has roads and that after the cease fire these countries should have used all their opportunities including their natural wealth. We should have realized this and not made mistakes. Before the cease fire we should have thought of occupying the roads and oil pipelines of Azerbaijan in order to have the opportunity to use these on our behalf. We should have gotten all the tools, which wouldn’t enable Azerbaijan use those against us in future. Under these circumstances the peace treaty was tremendously harmful economically for Armenia because the territories, which we occupied, are not of interest to anyone from the international community. We should have blocked the road between Georgia and Azerbaijan. And the second impact was the enrooting of the system brought during Ter-Petrosyan’s presidency. I have always said that during his presidency the greatest negative impact was made, which harmed many families because many of the men had to leave abroad to find jobs. The rest of these men were depressed because they were not able to take care of their families any more. This issue was even more complicated during Kocharyan’s presidency. The sad thing is that the relations and environment inside the country is so demoralized that people keep leaving their fatherland and the country is represented by oligarchs and officials with nicknames, owners of markets and gas stations, who have constantly been in the shady market and never paid taxes decently. These people are currently solving crucial issues of our country and our scientists obey them. The whole diplomatic base of the country, which was set in past, was fully annihilated. They have done it the way that now we are not able to negotiate important issues with key figures of the world. There was time when Russia during Yeltsin’s presidency was considering the opinion of Armenia. But now the situation is different and we cannot surprise Russia with anything any more. Moreover, we gave whatever we had to Russia; we have nothing else left to give to them. But Russia would take us seriously if we have profitable and strong strategic position in the region. Or if we had serious and wise politicians and diplomats. Even before the pas pipeline is built Armenia sells it to Russia – to Gazprom… Do you know that there are many ways of sale? And during this period Europe, England, which was being silent, is now taking over of the Georgian roads and railroads… Now how does the selling of the gas pipeline reflect on the social conditions of an average RA citizen? Have the social conditions improved? We should have given shares to different countries, as a result of which they would open factories, invest money, etc. Only the diplomatic and wise brains can put the country on the right track and make the country develop in the right direction. But when you sell the walls of your house you cannot do anything else. There are serious geopolitical and economic issues, which a country like Armenia cannot ignore. Today the Russian billions are directed at acquiring gas and oil pipelines in different countries because they want to build a corridor to Europe. The oil price per beryl is 120 USD. The countries, which don’t produce oil cannot afford it, even the powerful EU states such as France, Italy, etc. But in Arabic states, where the net price of oil is just pennies may quite soon acquire powerful capital in Europe, such as bank stocks, powerful economic structures, and in other words conquer the world. Will these developed countries let the rich Arabs buy whatever they wish without limitations? Can any smart politician believe that USA or Europe are scared of the nuclear weapon of Iran? No they are scared that Iran due to its oil and gas gradually grows into a powerful state. And now the whole struggle is whether to let the Arabic and states do so or not. One of the solutions was the war at the Persian Gulf, as a result of which Russia turned into a powerful state with its powerful oil sources. And as a result the oil price ran from 6 to 120 USD per beryl. So, it all depends on world global processes and the decisions of powerful states. And in the conditions of such a struggle our states may just lose their positions forever if they make wrong diplomatic solutions and decisions. Especially Armenia, which population is in a socially vulnerable plight and doesn’t trust the government, a country where corruption reaches tremendous levels people keep seeking jobs in foreign countries.
– What do you think about the rumors that the ongoing public movement is stipulated by foreign powers?
– There would not be such strong movement without external support, however the foreign powers would not be able to have such effect if during the last eight years the authorities of Armenia did not implement a policy against the people. During these years the country has weakened and the foreign powers know this very well and they used this opportunity for the purposes of their nations. Why did Ter-Petrosyan decide to be involved in the game? He is a serious politician and he knew what would be the result and that we might lose Karabakh and everything. It is a pity that in this situation Armenia cannot do anything. I think that after some negotiations with foreign powers he decided to do it in order not to take the blame of everything on him. As for Russia, the Russian government understands that if it loses Armenia, it will lose the Caucasus as well.
– Anyway both Ter-Petrosyan and Serzh Sargsyan say that Russia’s role is important. People think that the factor of this super-strong country is decisive in our country.
– That strong country is using that chance for its purposes. For example, England used that fact for its purposes too. As for Russia, generally the incumbent government of the country is protecting the incumbent government of another country. One can see this basing on the materials broadcast by the Russian TV companies. In the beginning they were broadcasting the approaches of the government, but later, when they saw that most of people were against the incumbent government, they decided to broadcast the rallies of the opposition as well.
– But the fact is that Russia has backed Serzh Sargsyan.
– Yes, but now based on some interviews given by certain Russian politicians we can say that Russia is trying to have neutral positions because it understands that if it does not count with the reality and looses Armenia, it will loose the entire Caucasus as well. Armenia is in a very bad situation. In consideration of the non-democratic environment in the country, the world economic crisis, if the international aids are suspended, if there is a conflict between Russia and Georgia resulting in closing the borders, Armenia will become like an isolated island. Now we don’t have to show anything to the external powers, now we should recover the civic society. Now the political powers should do their best to unite Serzh Sargsyan and Levon Ter-Petrosyan in order to bring new power into the political field and work out the Karabakh syndrome. Now people are seeking a third power, and it is the only solution to save Armenia. An independent group consisting of independent deputies should be established to investigate the events of March 1 because people don’t trust the investigation bodies, which are connected with the authorities and are manipulated by them. With such steps Serzh Sargsyan would show that the events of March 1 happened as a result of political crisis, thus those materials and events should be investigated by independent political powers and lawyers. However, I don’t see any politicians on the scene who can do such thing.
– There are few such powers in the parliament and the Heritage party can take that role.
– Let them entrust this role to the Heritage. Stepan Demirchyan could be involved in it as a representative of the non-parliamentary powers as well. It would be a nice solution. Now many people are in prisons and while they are in prisons it is more dangerous for the state to leave them in cells than to set them free. Who can give such advice to the government now? Most of the politicians are now more occupied in business activities and information about who has big businesses and shares, etc. What do you think? Can the people with such way of thinking make serious political decisions for the country? My imagination is that some people are convincing the president every day to make mistakes.
Let me ask you a question. What was the political struggle concentrated on during the past eight years? It was concentrated mainly on business issues such as who will owe businesses, who will get positions, who will get good deals, etc. Such people who have been struggling for importing gas or not paying taxes cannot be good advisers for the president. For example, they can’t advice him not to bow before the Russian president, how to maintain relations with NATO, etc. However, I don’t think it is a good idea to organize extraordinary elections because now there is not adequate political field. There is no single candidate trusted by the society. It is essential to dissolve the parliament. Now no one is able to take the country out of this situation. I have also spoken about Ter-Petrosyan’s mistakes in the past, and now he has to give answers for the mistakes he has done in the past. I used to tell him that positions should be given to people who are loyal to you too much, who are begging you. In the past, at the beginning of their tenure Vazgen Sargsyan refused to sit near Ter-Petrosyan and said that when his president was sitting he did not have the right to sit. However, later the same person forced him leave.
– What do you think about the issue of political prisoners?
– Because of Robert Kocharyan’s actions any person could be taken from streets and become a criminal, and many people have been imprisoned that way. There were so many people who were against this government and who have committed many crimes, who are out of the law, but now they are political prisoners. Now, when they are in cells, they allege that they are political prisoners. Do you know that many of those arrested people were doing the same thing from the other side during Ter-Petrosyan’s tenure as well? I know people who have done the same thing against Ashot Manucharyan. When a former policeman says that he is a political detainee, it is not only funny, but very difficult to understand. The same people have done orders all the time: during Ter-Petrosyan’s office they did orders, and during Kocharyan’s and Sargsyan’s tenure they are doing other orders. Many of them are using the word “political detainee” in order not to be called a criminal. Of course there are also people who have been imprisoned for their ideologies.
– At least is there a power now which can take the country out of this situation?
– Some important steps should be done as I said. These are not only political, but also diplomatic steps. There is a danger of an economic crisis in the country as well, now there is oil crisis in the whole world too. There used to be a power before the presidential election, before March 1, but now there is no power to take that role. If people saw another name, they would follow him too because they are disappointed. The only way how the authorities can provide more financial incomes into the budget is through restricting their policies. But it is not a good solution.
Now Ter-Petrosyan and S. Sargsyan should do the right things together. Ter-Petrosyan can do diplomatic steps and achieve many goals, he is a good diplomat. However, many of his loyalists are worse than the loyalists of Serzh Sargsyan, who just want to make money and have nothing to do but protect their wealth. Many of Ter-Petrosyan’s loyalists are political cheaters. The problem is that now he can’t give up on them and that is why he has to bear their presence. Now Ter-Petrosyan and Serzh Sargsyan should unite and organize extraordinary parliamentary elections as soon as possible to prove to people that honest politicians are more important for the country than people who have collected much wealth illegally. Now there are fair politicians, people who can think independently and good economists and politicians, including women. The problem is that people don’t know them, and the press does not provide any information about them. This is the reason why Ter-Petrosyan and Serzh Sargsyan should take this role now.
They can save the country together. They should come to an agreement to organize extraordinary parliamentary elections as soon as possible in order to have the credibility of people. People are ready for such elections. They should create the third power. They should help this country together, overcome the economic crisis and face the challenges. They should create this powerful force and resign.
– Why should they resign after saving the country?
– Because the belligerent power, Serzh Sargsyan, and the revolutionary power, Levon Ter-Petrosyan, cannot build a democratic state in such difficult economic situation. They should be brave enough to do that in favor of the Armenian people, and strong enough to resign. Even George Washington did so and before leaving he said, “I have done my job, but hence I can’t lead the country through the democratic path.” Later Abraham Lincoln became president. He used to be considered a weak person before the elections, even he was considered weak in his family, but he could become the most important historical and political figure of that period, who led the country through the democratic path.