Lawyer Varand Gourjian represents the American Gourjian Law Group company, which is occupied in resolving disputes connected with real estate property. Varand Gourjian, aged 35, is an experienced lawyer, who not only knows his profession well but speaks several languages as well. He has studied not only jurisprudence in the university of California, but philosophy as well. He believes that in this profession one should be a good philosopher and analyze well in order to be a good lawyer. One of his biggest cases was connected with a discovered big machination in the Wall Street stock exchange, where they had created a fake pyramid structure and embezzled 2 billion dollars from citizens. As a result of court trials, which lasted about 3 years, Gourjian returned one billion from the embezzled money. Even Armenians from other countries ask for his professional services. He tries to be in Armenia often because he has friends and clients here. He visited Armenia for the first time in 1994, and during this visit he also visited Karabakh for several months. Varand Gourjian was born in Beirut, and as he says he was baptized in Tehran, and studied in the US. Now he is in Armenia to participate in the first forum of Armenian lawyers from the world organized by the ministry of the Diaspora. However, after participating in the first session of the forum he asked not to consider him a participant any more.
– Are you disappointed about the forum?
– I was informed that such forum would take place by e-mail, and I agreed to be a participant. I considered this forum useless and asked to take me out of the list of participants on the first day when the 11th participant spoke the name of Mkhitar Gosh and spoke about his book in his speech. I understood that I did not want to continue my participation in the forum and waste my time. Maybe there was some organizational change in the next days, but I argue that they had chosen a wrong direction for the forum.
– Last year they organized a forum of architectures as well, during which the architectures from other countries could not influence on the construction sector in Armenia in any manner. The impression is that such forums are driven by soviet slogans. For example, they may say that all lawyers from the world should join.
– When organizing such conferences they should work with the specialists from other countries in advance, introduce the issues to be discussed. It is not necessary to hold such discussions in large halls with a big format; such discussions should be in small rooms in order to make it professional. In consideration of specificity of issues they should put specific issues on the table of discussion for small groups of participants. For example, the forum would be more interesting if they organized presentations or gave an opportunity to the professionals from different parts of the world to focus on specific issues. And if Armenia is thinking of using a new law, it would give an opportunity to the lawyers to develop recommendations.
– In fact the Republic of Armenia has problems with its property outside of Armenia. Is it possible to use the knowledge potential of the Diaspora and solve some problems through such forum?
– Of course it is possible. If we assume that the forum of Armenian lawyers from the world has been organized for the purpose of establishing working groups, and when you follow the conference, it becomes clear that the goal of the organizers were not specific. It seems the forum has been organized only for one purpose; to demonstrate that something is being done. And it doesn’t matter what is begin done.
– Can the oligarchic system in Armenia be broken with the efforts of lawyers?
– The monopolistic structure of business in fact does not let lawyers to interfere seriously. If oligarchs can escape from paying the customs fees of imported products and bypass the free market principles easily, what can lawyers do? They are not able to direct this process because they are used to the law and even if they file a well-established case to the court, they will understand that the Armenian courts are a part of that problem. How can you overcome an illegal reality with actions within the law? It is impossible. This problem is out of the law, the solution of which is in the political sector. When I came to Armenia 3 years ago I learnt that the person who was making everyone to pay customs was exploded in his car and killed. If problems are solved with bombs the law can do nothing here. For example, a lot of people in Armenia think that the opening of the Armenian-Turkish border may solve many problems in the economy of Armenia. But it is not true. If businesses are centralized in the hands of monopolists, open borders can do nothing and after opening the border they will still control the monopolies.
– Do you think that the opening of the border will not have a positive influence on the business sector?
– If the open border can bring benefit for all Armenians equally, it will be good for the economy for sure, but I am not optimistic about the business structure. Only several people will benefit from the opening of the border, and the main society will have no benefits from the opening of the border. Only oligarchs will benefit from the open borders, who will continue setting the prices of imported products and keep these directions under their control. In a word, it is naïve to connect the business development with the possibility of opening the border.
– What does the economy need to develop?
– Of course the situation cannot be corrected rapidly. If the government really wants to correct the situation they should understand that the first step is the education. Even if everyone has got used to violence, they should understand that at least the coming generation should understand that it is not good to continue this way. I think that now a lot of young people tend to it and they understand what a good education means for them.
– Have you visited students of jurisprudence at any university and talked to them? Many of these children are the sons of oligarchs and don’t want to get good education.
– If it is true, it is a tragedy. As a rule the lawyers who are working out of Armenia cannot change anything here, they should come and work here in order to be useful for the society. If the domestic society does not have a tradition of respecting the law, it can be imported from outside. I know such examples when lawyers from other countries are coming to Armenia, working here, thus influencing on the public opinion. There are few people who want this. Such people should be a little crazy to leave what they have there and come here to start everything from zero.
– By the way, the vision of living and starting everything from zero is very attractive.
– Maybe it is true. But you should confess that people don’t come to live here due to the same reasons as the local Armenians are made to leave their homeland. The life is too short and few people are ready to change the good living with the vision of improving some issues in the country. One should really be mad to make such decision.
– Are you like that too?
– Definitely no. But it is not important. I am not powerful here because the power of a lawyer is the law. If these limits are crossed, our work collapses even if we are too professional. When a lawyer brings up facts and proves his point of view at the court, he should be sure that if his facts are true and reasonable he will win the case but not be manipulated by the court, otherwise everything is in vain. As far as I know the Armenian judicial system, it needs serious structural changes. However this issue is not in the hand of people or the judicial system but the politicians. Accordingly, my decision to live here is useless and no one would acre about it.
– It seems that in America almost all citizens are somehow participants of judicial proceedings. Trials may last several years and it seems that this country is in permanent judicial proceedings. Does this mean that this fact of intensive judicial proceedings is a factor of democracy?
– From the point of view of the judicial system of course the US is an extreme country. Now the American government is trying to adopt laws enabling to solve disputable issues without courts. For example, now it is possible to solve issues concerning pensions or money without the court. However, when you can demand to bring a judicial case to protect your positions you feel protected. It is also means of psychological protection. I can say that (even if it sounds wrong) there are cases when it is better to openly violate the law than cover it with the law. Corruption can be considered the actions of for example both the policeman who takes 10.000 dram from a driver in the street and the businessman who embezzles 100 million dollar from the government under the cover of investments. The actions of the driver is more visible and to some extent understandable than that of the businessman. I think that people know that there are such businessmen in Armenia as well. The same thing is done here and businessmen are embezzling the governmental money too, but alas the actions of the police are more evident and visible than the others.
– We understand all these things but we are used to it…
– It is very bad when people get used to such life. When you are showing the same thing to a person all the time, he/she starts accepting it as a normal thing. When you are pointing out a problem and don’t solve it, the problem becomes sustainable and gets deeper.
– What kind of violations do the Armenians of America usually do?
– Mainly immigrants from Armenia are violating the law; however in the recent times they have learnt how to respect the law. As a rule, at least three generations should change in order to get rid of the soviet mentality. The main and biggest problem is that the people of Armenia are not afraid of the law. There were many violations and crimes such as murders, robberies, however if we compare to the situation 15 years ago, it is better now. Thieves and killers are in prisons and now there are advanced thieves and they are stealing money from the government, they make violations through the Internet, etc. The Armenians who were grown up and educated in the United States respect the law more. And I am very optimistic about this generation.
– Do you mean that it is necessary to import this generation?
– I think the Armenians who were born here but grown up in the States are ready to return to their homeland because they have friends and relatives here, they have memories… They also have a feeling of responsibility for Armenia.